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Old 03-10-2012, 09:07 PM   #1
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Default What Country are we living in?

Ok so, aside from the contraception issue and the ultrasound probing (internal or external) my next question is:

When/Why the hell are laws being passed now in states that allow Doctors to lie to their pregnant patients if they "think" it may prevent an abortion?

WHAT THE FUCK? Yeah, I said it.

If something is wrong with my child, I no longer have a right to know? AND if a Dr. DOES lie to me, I have absolutely ZERO recourse now? I PAY HIM. I PAY INSURANCE THAT PAYS HIM. HOW IS THIS OK?

And, last I looked, abortion was legal whether you would choose to have one or not. It's not the government's decision, it's not the Dr's decision, it's OUR decision!

This law has been passed in Oklahoma, Kansas and now Arizona... I think there are a few others. I WANT THESE LAW MAKERS TO STAY OUT OF MY LIFE! The Republican SAY they want less government, but I have never seen so much government in our lives. Oh that's right, they want less government when it comes to the big banks so they can screw us some more, but more government to monitor our private lives.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

This also means if there is something major wrong that may kill the woman as well, it STILL may not be told to you.

So let's see if I have this all down now.

1. If you want an abortion, even if you are raped, you should have a trans-vaginal ultrasound... Yeah they caved, but they still wanted that.
2. If you are raped, too bad... it's a "gift from God"
3. The Dr. can lie to you even if the child will be born with major defects or downs.
4. You have the child expecting it to be healthy. It isn't. You aren't ready for it. Too bad. You cannot sue the Dr., it's legal for him to do this. The government said so.
5. You ask for government assistance because the medical bills are too high. Tough shit. You need to know who the daddy is and turn over his name. "But I was raped"... Oh well, too bad. You should have watched where you were walking that night and made sure your legs were closed.
6. No you may NOT have contraception!

What's next?
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:13 PM   #2
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What is this law? Before I comment, I want to see what it is. Do you have a link or something?
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:18 PM   #3
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http://rt.com/usa/news/lawsuit-arizo...-abortion-149/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

http://jezebel.com/5525617/oklahoma-...o-lie-to-women

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/okla-ab...9#.T1wndszXFFQ

Let me know if you need more lol
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:44 AM   #4
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Geez both parties are all over in your face and everyone's business! So tired of the government telling me what to do.
what country is this? Socialist if you ask me.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:37 AM   #5
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Ooo, this is going to be a long response. I can feel it. It'll be like my thoughts AS I read these articles. Thanks TK.

Quote:
But under a new law in Oklahoma, women like Casteix, who have been sexually assaulted, will be forced to undergo a second trauma. The law requires them to undergo a sonogram...
I'm sorry, but an ultrasound is NOT a trauma. I know this is an attempt at drama by the article author, but even a transvaginal US is nowhere near as traumatic as the sexual assault this poor women went through. Poor use of words.

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Now, that said, and after reading (mostly skimming) the articles and the law itself, I have a problem with the actual law. I'll save the ultrasound talk for another time.

This is actually something discussed in Medical Ethics as an extreme that usually isn't something we encounter. Well, now, apparently it is something to encounter. Set aside, for a moment, the word abortion. Set aside the religious, moral, political, personal beliefs tied to that word. A word many don't really understand in its grand scheme, not at the fault of the individual. Set all of that aside.

At the heart of this situation is a doctor, a physician that you have entrusted to follow and take care of you during your pregnancy, who can lie to you by withholding information that could be detrimental to YOUR health as a woman carrying a fetus. This is not OK. It undermines the core principles of practicing medicine. The core principles of Do No Harm. The principle of patient autonomy (which is a tricky topic in and of itself) UNDER an EDUCATED AND INFORMED DECISION MAKING PROCESS. The informed part is important and this law takes away from that. The principle of doing good to your patient.

Now, it's very tricky as an Obstetrical doc. You have the mother, who is your patient, but you also have a fetus...who is also your patient until the Pediatrician takes over after he/she/they is born. It's a delicate balance that really is so full of depth that it's difficult to grasp sometimes.

THAT all being said, it's also important to step back and look at this law from two points. One - a doctor willingly lying to a patient about the fetus's well-being in order to hopefully sway the mother and father from deciding to abort the fetus. Two - which I believe is being conveniently ignored - protecting a physician from the "lawsuit-happy" world in which we live. Did you know that if your 18 year old son or daughter does not get into Harvard and you believe it is due to an intellectual disability that was missed in utero or caused by a traumatic birth, you can go back and sue your Obstretics doc for this supposed disability? Don't believe me? This stuff happens DAILY and lawyers encourage the suits to take place and families go through with it. Your 14 year old child get hit by a bus because her intellectual disability prevented her from accurately assessing the street before crossing? Call your lawyer. It's the Ob's fault. You think I am kidding, but these happen REGULARLY. It's a very fine line we walk. The woman takes care of the baby for 9 months, the doc only a handful of visits throughout the actual pregnancy (that is if the woman even gets regular prenatal care. The majority of the world does not.). What happens between visits is not always shared and it is very difficult to determine if it's something the doctor could have noticed or not. The stories I have from the Ob world would blow your mind. Blow your mind. But that's for another day. In this sense, this law can be work. The problem is, there are too many ifs, ands and buts in a law of this nature, that I'm afraid will do more harm than good.

At the crux of this all, and I cannot stress this enough, is the fact that there are doctors who could deliberately withhold information from their patient - whether for personal beliefs or to cover their own behind when it comes to the law. This is just simply not OK. It starts here and can progress to withholding information from the patient in other aspects of their healthcare. This is not a world in which we want to live, abortion or not. Pro-life or not. Pro-choice or not. It's someone's health. Information should NOT be withheld. The problem here is that there are people with NO medical background, NO medical knowledge making laws and decisions about people's medical careers and people's health citing morals and religion as a reason. This is unacceptable and this is exactly why healthcare in the United States has been and may continue to progress on a downward spiral.

I am sick of United States politics. All parties - they need to get their heads out of their asses, hands out of their pockets and start making decisions for the CONSTITUENTS.
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19wingz View Post
Ooo, this is going to be a long response. I can feel it. It'll be like my thoughts AS I read these articles. Thanks TK.



I'm sorry, but an ultrasound is NOT a trauma. I know this is an attempt at drama by the article author, but even a transvaginal US is nowhere near as traumatic as the sexual assault this poor women went through. Poor use of words.

_______________________________

Now, that said, and after reading (mostly skimming) the articles and the law itself, I have a problem with the actual law. I'll save the ultrasound talk for another time.

This is actually something discussed in Medical Ethics as an extreme that usually isn't something we encounter. Well, now, apparently it is something to encounter. Set aside, for a moment, the word abortion. Set aside the religious, moral, political, personal beliefs tied to that word. A word many don't really understand in its grand scheme, not at the fault of the individual. Set all of that aside.

At the heart of this situation is a doctor, a physician that you have entrusted to follow and take care of you during your pregnancy, who can lie to you by withholding information that could be detrimental to YOUR health as a woman carrying a fetus. This is not OK. It undermines the core principles of practicing medicine. The core principles of Do No Harm. The principle of patient autonomy (which is a tricky topic in and of itself) UNDER an EDUCATED AND INFORMED DECISION MAKING PROCESS. The informed part is important and this law takes away from that. The principle of doing good to your patient.

Now, it's very tricky as an Obstetrical doc. You have the mother, who is your patient, but you also have a fetus...who is also your patient until the Pediatrician takes over after he/she/they is born. It's a delicate balance that really is so full of depth that it's difficult to grasp sometimes.

THAT all being said, it's also important to step back and look at this law from two points. One - a doctor willingly lying to a patient about the fetus's well-being in order to hopefully sway the mother and father from deciding to abort the fetus. Two - which I believe is being conveniently ignored - protecting a physician from the "lawsuit-happy" world in which we live. Did you know that if your 18 year old son or daughter does not get into Harvard and you believe it is due to an intellectual disability that was missed in utero or caused by a traumatic birth, you can go back and sue your Obstretics doc for this supposed disability? Don't believe me? This stuff happens DAILY and lawyers encourage the suits to take place and families go through with it. Your 14 year old child get hit by a bus because her intellectual disability prevented her from accurately assessing the street before crossing? Call your lawyer. It's the Ob's fault. You think I am kidding, but these happen REGULARLY. It's a very fine line we walk. The woman takes care of the baby for 9 months, the doc only a handful of visits throughout the actual pregnancy (that is if the woman even gets regular prenatal care. The majority of the world does not.). What happens between visits is not always shared and it is very difficult to determine if it's something the doctor could have noticed or not. The stories I have from the Ob world would blow your mind. Blow your mind. But that's for another day. In this sense, this law can be work. The problem is, there are too many ifs, ands and buts in a law of this nature, that I'm afraid will do more harm than good.

At the crux of this all, and I cannot stress this enough, is the fact that there are doctors who could deliberately withhold information from their patient - whether for personal beliefs or to cover their own behind when it comes to the law. This is just simply not OK. It starts here and can progress to withholding information from the patient in other aspects of their healthcare. This is not a world in which we want to live, abortion or not. Pro-life or not. Pro-choice or not. It's someone's health. Information should NOT be withheld. The problem here is that there are people with NO medical background, NO medical knowledge making laws and decisions about people's medical careers and people's health citing morals and religion as a reason. This is unacceptable and this is exactly why healthcare in the United States has been and may continue to progress on a downward spiral.

I am sick of United States politics. All parties - they need to get their heads out of their asses, hands out of their pockets and start making decisions for the CONSTITUENTS.
I am only going to comment on the bolded portion of the quote the rest has way too many legal pitfalls and will no doubt cause even more trouble then the lay person will even think exsist....

I realize that at the stage in your studies & medical practice you should not have been invovled in the legal needs of "rape evidence collection" I make this assumption because unless you are a licensed certified individudal you would not be in the room.....Collecting evidence of rape is a traumatic experience! The victim has been used & abused by time they hit the ER doors...along with the invasive nature of collecting vaginal samples with the chain of evidence protocals being followed you have not only the physical by mental effects of rape being dealt with...doing a vaginal ultrasound is not only un-needed medically but has the added mental torture to the victim as well as adds to the lack of control in reguards what is done to their body....basicly on an emotional level it would be a re-rape since NO isn't an option!
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:08 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by SassyGal View Post
I am only going to comment on the bolded portion of the quote the rest has way too many legal pitfalls and will no doubt cause even more trouble then the lay person will even think exsist....

I realize that at the stage in your studies & medical practice you should not have been invovled in the legal needs of "rape evidence collection" I make this assumption because unless you are a licensed certified individudal you would not be in the room.....Collecting evidence of rape is a traumatic experience! The victim has been used & abused by time they hit the ER doors...along with the invasive nature of collecting vaginal samples with the chain of evidence protocals being followed you have not only the physical by mental effects of rape being dealt with...doing a vaginal ultrasound is not only un-needed medically but has the added mental torture to the victim as well as adds to the lack of control in reguards what is done to their body....basicly on an emotional level it would be a re-rape since NO isn't an option!
Most med students haven't, but I have actually been a part of rape evidence collection. It was a very sad reality to face, but I was a part of it because a) the resident wanted me to go along and b) I did want exposure at my level because I know I'm going to have to deal with it in my future - which I hate to realize.

That said, I can only imagine the experience and flashbacks it brings. Transvaginal ultrasounds have been demonstrated to sometimes give a better picture at what needs to be assessed, such as in ectopic pregnancy cases. Obviously I have never had one, but from the people that I have spoken to - patients mostly - most have said it is actually painless. Instead, they noted, it they feel increased pressure and slight discomfort. The discussion about abdominal/pelvic US vs transvag US is a whole other story, in my opinion.

My problem with what the article said was their equation of a transvag ultrasound to her sexual assault. They are not the same. At all. Yes, the insertion of something into the vagina will be extra uncomfortable for her, and if it is not absolutely necessary it shouldn't be done, but it is not the same thing. The author took a little too much liberty there in trying to paint a picture for the reader. That was my issue, not the merits or indications of the procedure. I purposely wanted to leave that aside because a) I've never had one and b) I'm not an experienced clinician or ultrasound tech to fully speak on it.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:58 PM   #8
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I have had two of these and under normal circumstances, no, they aren't painful in any way. However, if I, as a result of rape, was going in to have an abortion (which in itself will be another trauma but at least I would be out for it)... and I have to have a Government mandated procedure where they will be sticking a foreign object up and around my vagina, yeah, it will damn well be traumatic. First, I got raped on the street, and now I HAVE to lie down for that, NOT by choice. It is not as violent as rape, but it is still a violation of my body.

In fact, I know many rape victims don't have sex for a long time after because of the PTSD that follows. I can't imagine having a trans-vaginal ultrasound will go over well.

Aside from all that, about the "lying" law. The law is specifically put in place to allow pro-life doctors to make a decision for you on whether you should keep a child or not. If the want to prevent crazy people from suing when their child is 18, that's one thing, but to lie only to prevent someone from seeking something that is LEGAL in this country is crap. It also undermines faith we have in our own physicians that WE pay for.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:12 PM   #9
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In fact, I know many rape victims don't have sex for a long time after because of the PTSD that follows. I can't imagine having a trans-vaginal ultrasound will go over well.

Aside from all that, about the "lying" law. The law is specifically put in place to allow pro-life doctors to make a decision for you on whether you should keep a child or not. If the want to prevent crazy people from suing when their child is 18, that's one thing, but to lie only to prevent someone from seeking something that is LEGAL in this country is crap. It also undermines faith we have in our own physicians that WE pay for.
Crazy and odd factoid of the day, there is actually a documented case of a woman who gave birth to twins ... from different fathers. One from her rapist and the other from her husband, whom she had sex with AFTER her assault. One of the docs I worked with was involved in the cast to a certain extent. This is a very very unique EXTREME. What you said is entirely true, as many would imagine.

The second paragraph, that is exactly my issue. It undermines faith you as patients have with physicians who you entrust to care for you. Our career depends on you being 100% open with us and now this puts that in question. I don't like that one bit.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:36 AM   #10
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Exactly. So as a patient, do we need to start interviewing Doctors, asking their stance on abortion? Even if we would NEVER fathom getting one, I would still want to be sure my Dr. Is giving me all pertinent health info, even if he "thought" I may consider that or not. It just isnt his place to make that decision for a person. Once the child is born, he is no longer responsible for this childs care and raising. There is absolutely no reason he should be making that judgment call.
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